Bernie Sanders, Interview par Kate Tsurkan
As Ukraine enters the fourth year of Russia's full-scale invasion, shifting political dynamics in the U.S. threaten to influence the course of the war. U.S. President Donald Trump has repeatedly misrepresented the war’s origins, excluded Ukraine from initial negotiations, and advocated for what many see as an exploitative deal that would force Ukraine to surrender national resources as “repayment” for U.S. aid.
Trump’s rhetoric raises urgent questions about America's long-term commitment to aiding Ukraine.
In an interview with the Kyiv Independent, U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders shares his concerns about Trump’s growing alignment with Russia and other authoritarian regimes, what a possible U.S.-Russia alliance would mean for the American people, the role of billionaires like Elon Musk in shaping both domestic and international political discourse, and why defending Ukraine is crucial for the future of global democracy.
The Kyiv Independent: Recently, a number of Republicans have hesitated to say outright that Russia invaded Ukraine. At the same time, Donald Trump has not only called President Volodymyr Zelensky a dictator — he has spoken in increasingly favorable terms about Russian President Vladimir Putin. What is going on with the state of the GOP right now?
Bernie Sanders: What is extraordinarily distressing to the majority of the American people is that we now have a president who has very strong authoritarian tendencies, and in many ways, is moving the U.S., the longest-standing democracy on Earth, into an authoritarian-style society.
In many ways, Trump likes what Putin does. Putin does not allow freedom of the press. Putin kills his opponents. Putin does not allow dissent — and that's kind of a model that Trump likes.
For the first time in modern history, we have a president who is aligning himself with authoritarian governments all over the world, not only Russia but with Iran, with Belarus, rather than with democratic governments in Europe and Ukraine. It is a very distressing moment.
As part of that movement toward authoritarianism, you have people like Elon Musk, the richest guy in the world, who says to Republicans that if you don't do what the U.S. president wants you to do, we're going to spend unlimited amounts of money to defeat you (in your next election) — so you better get in line.
Obviously, everybody in America knows that Russia started this war. But you have Republicans who are just too afraid to speak up against Trump. It's a sad state of affairs.
The Kyiv Independent: Let's imagine the worst-case scenario where American foreign interests align with Russia's. How would that impact the lives of average Americans?
Bernie Sanders: Well, for a start, it would undermine what the U.S. has been about for 250 years. America is the longest-standing democracy on Earth. For so many years, it hasn’t been perfect. God knows American democracy is not perfect and that our foreign policy over the years has had many, many flaws. But the truth is that developing nations look to the U.S., to our constitution, to our Declaration of Independence, to our appreciation of human freedom and democracy and say that that makes sense.
And now for us to shift into alliances with authoritarian thugs and murderers like Putin or the Saudi Arabian government or other oligarchies is extremely distressing to the vast majority of American people.
The Kyiv Independent: Do you think that history will look back favorably upon the past decade of military and humanitarian aid for Ukraine?
Bernie Sanders: I think what history will show is that a country was invaded by a large authoritarian nation with a powerful army who thought that they could conquer another country in a few days. But that country, Ukraine, fought back with extraordinary courage and has suffered terribly as a result. Its European allies, democratic nations, have stood up to Putin and come to their aid.
"Defending Ukraine is defending democracy and justice all over the world."
And up until now, the U.S. and the people of America have also supported Ukraine. At a time when democracy all over the world is under threat, when we're seeing increased power for oligarchs and authoritarians, I think defending Ukraine is defending democracy and justice all over the world.
The Kyiv Independent: We see figures like Musk working alongside Trump while also regularly spreading Russian disinformation online. What can the U.S. do to better fight Russian propaganda?
Bernie Sanders: That's an issue that we are thinking about and working on every single day. And I'll give you another example. It's not just Musk and his power from owning Twitter, which is extraordinary. He has extraordinary reach. And by the way, don't think it's just Ukraine that he is going after.
In terms of domestic policies, we passed some important legislation here. Musk lied about that legislation and got Republicans to defeat it a couple of months ago. But it's not just Musk.
The second wealthiest man in the country, Jeff Bezos, decided to convert the Washington Post, one of our major newspapers, from what I would call a centrist moderate paper to a right-wing editorial page.
He just made that public yesterday. So this is a difficult moment for my country, for people who believe in democracy and who don’t believe in oligarchy. And we are doing our best, not only in terms of Ukraine but in many, many other areas, to take on Musk and his enormous power and Trump.
But I do want to say — as somebody who has gone around the country — I want the people of Ukraine to know that the majority of the American people do not believe Trump. Trump is a pathological liar, and most Americans know that. Most Americans know that Russia started the war, not Ukraine.
Most Americans know that Putin is the dictator, not Zelensky. Most Americans know that under terrible conditions, Ukraine has fought back valiantly and is admired and respected by people all over the world. I want you all to know that.
The Kyiv Independent: What can the average American do in these uncertain coming weeks and months to show their support for Ukraine?
Bernie Sanders: I think we have got to stand up and expose Trump for the liar that he is. The idea that he would, in the middle of a terrible war where you have lost tens and tens of thousands of people — (among them) men, women, and children — propose extractions of rare minerals from Ukraine when it is struggling so much is quite outrageous.
What we are doing (here in the U.S.) is going all over the country. We're seeing large numbers of people coming out and saying Trumpism, authoritarianism, and oligarchy are not what the U.S. is about. We have reason to be proud that we are the longest-standing democracy on Earth, and we intend to keep it that way.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
Note from the author:
It was a great honor for me to talk to U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders, a politician I've admired my whole adult life. Hearing people like him speak the truth about the threat of global authoritarianism and the importance of continuing to support Ukraine in its fight against Russia's war of total annihilation is more important than ever. If you enjoyed reading this interview, please consider supporting The Kyiv Independent.